2 out of 3 khulis dead

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Postby Dogfish » 2007-02-03 22:53

I got 3 new khulis at lfs tuesday and this afternoon 2 are dead and other is dying i think. water chemistry is in good range, other fish (platties, danios and red tail shark) all seem happy, healthy and active. any ideas? Khulis seem to have pink gils
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-03 22:59

Oh dear! What happened?
Where did you get them, and what conditions were they living in?
Did you acclimatise them properly?
You should quarantine new fish in case of incidents like this.

Ah - has the RTshark attacked them at all?
What damage/symptoms are they showing?
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Postby Dogfish » 2007-02-03 23:03

the tank at lfs was in good condition. they were acclimated properly and spent most time hiding in plants. other fish have paid no attention to them at all. they were very active last 2 days (full moon i guess). i did normal wc thursday .
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Postby Dogfish » 2007-02-03 23:24

after close exzmination of khuli i saw no wounds or trauma. currently fish is out in the open, rolling around and rubbing its back on the gravel. then it noses around in crevaces and repeats rolling
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-03 23:32

That's not at all normal - rolling???
The digging about is almost - but khulis are secretive fish - they should be hiding away... Are the lights in the tank off at this time?

*is having to think about this one*
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Postby Dogfish » 2007-02-03 23:41

light was on at time of rolling, its off now and fish is laying in the middle of the tank not even trying to hide even though there are plenty of places too
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-03 23:46

That is really, really not normal.
Khulis don't like light as a rule... And rolling - do you mean literally over and over?
There is something seriously wrong with those fish.
Can you just give me a breakdown on the water perameters - see if it's that the khuli doesn't like - the pH or something...

I've kept these fish rather successfully for years now, and this is new to me.
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-03 23:51

Anyway, terribly sorry - but I have to get some sleep.
I'll do what I can in the morning, but to be honest, I don't think there is much you can do to help this loach, besides turn the lights off for him/her - this may help.
Pop up the results, I can see if something has upset them for you, and advise on what to do next.
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Postby Dogfish » 2007-02-04 00:01

Temp: 75 deg. far.
ammonia and nitrites at 0
nitrates at 20 ppm
Ph at 6.8 to 7
Only other thing i can think of is that I recharged a nitrate reducer with wc on thursday which means soaking it in warm water and aquarium salt for 2 hours and then rinse. maybe some of the salt got into the tank. I don't know ?
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-04 12:30

Hm - that's very odd indeed. The kuhlis should have been fine with that...
The amount of salt, even after a good rinse, shouldn't have affected them that badly - especially not enough to make them roll around...

The only thing I can think of is shock - perhaps they had got used to awful conditions at the store/whereever they came from - and your healthy tank was just too much for them.

I'd ask for a refund to be honest.
If you get any next time, have a spare tank to acclimatise them in to, and quarantine them for a few weeks too. Acclimatisation for loaches should be about an hour for best results - that means adding small amounts of yuor tank water into the bag every few minutes too - so they can get used to the nitrates, pH etc.
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2007-02-04 14:30

Hi Dogfish,
Sorry to hear of your bad luck. Having read this thread my conclusion is toxic shock. Your nitrate reading, although not a problem to the fish you already have in the tank could be the cause. It would confirm what I am thinking if you ask your LFS what there is. It could be they, that is the LFS, use a nitrate filter, which would keep their reading well below the 20 mark. As IBF stated, it is important to have a quarantine tank at the ready when buying in new fish. :tup:
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Postby Dogfish » 2007-02-05 01:10

this morning i took dead fish and water sample to lfs for testing. their results were same as mine. the guy felt it was either a bacterial infection because the gils were red or the stress of moving and then a wc the day after. as for a quarantine tank what does one use? how big? decorated? what kind of substrate?
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-05 10:30

Which is why I suggested quarantine. Good job none of the others came down ill...

Quarantine tanks can be whatever you like. I have a small acrylic tank in my cupboard that I use. I always have spare filter media in my other tank/s, so I fill my spare filter with that so the quarantine is ready to go.
You can decorate it if you want, and plastic plants would help make the new fish feel safe and secure in a strange new environment.
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2007-02-05 19:53

Dogfish,
Re hospital/quarantine tanks:
The information as given by IBF is fine concerning the fish in your case, but for the benefit of others, size does matter. The bigger the fish, then the appropriate size tank is required.

Re bacterial infection:
I am going to stick by what IBF and I suggested, toxic shock. The implications of a bacterial infection imply several conditions. The first being that they were already infected, apparently not the case, for you mentioned that they appeared healthy at the LFS. The second, your tank housed the bacteria. That scenario is a possiblity, but the demise of your khulis was so fast and add the fact that the fish you already have are healthy points toward toxic shock.

Re toxic shock:
Tap water toxicidity: Poisoning caused by any contaminant, including agricultural chemicals such as nitrates, phosphates; minerals occurring naturally in your source water; metallic contamination from pipe work, lead, copper and chemicals added by your local water authority such as chlorine, chloramine. The two latter mention are added to eliminate bacteria and other undesirable life forms.

Types:
Acidosis; a condition caused by the pH falling below the optimal range for the species affected.
Signs: These vary depending on whether the drop is rapid (acute acidosis) or gradual (chronic acidosis).

Acute acidosis:
Behaviour: In the event of a rapid fall or adding fish to a pH way below their norm, some or all of the following will be observed; rapid darting swimming movements and jumping. Death may follow rapidly.

Chronic acidosis:
A slow decrease in pH over time produces less obvious behavioural signs. Fish often gasp and cough as a result of gill damage due to a reduced capacity for blood haemoglobin to carry oxygen. This inhibition is so rapid in the acute form and is accountable for the rapid death.

*Alkalosis:
This is a condition caused by the increase in pH significantly above the natural limit for the species in question. It is less common than Acidosis as the dissolved minerals, which give water its alkalinity, also help to stabilise pH. The signs and behaviour attributed to this condition are similar to those of acidosis. In both conditions, mucus hyper-production and the reddening of gills and skin are caused by caustic alkaline/acidic anomalies.


In cases where fish are moved from an environment in which they are accustomed, to one, which is alien, then ether one of the above conditions can be held accountable for rapid deaths.

Nitrate (-NO<sub>3</sub>)
Nitrate Poisoning (Nitrate shock)
Even in the short term, exposure to undesirable high levels of nitrate may cause stress and compromise the immune system. This will in turn leave the fish more prone to attack from pathogens. In the longer term the continuing, and often increasing, stress will gradually weaken the fish, causing general slight, or even sever ill health, even without pathogenic attack. Symptoms to look out for are lethargy, respiratory distress, yawning, loss of appetite, emaciation, and reproductive failure. In fact, anything that does not look right with fish could be attributed to high nitrate levels.

Osmotic shock:
Mentioned, as it is what happens to the fishes osmoregulatory system in the advent of any sever chemical changes to the aquarium water. What has to be taken into consideration with fish is that their life depends on this system. It controls the correct balance between salt/water so as to provide optimal conditions for various physiological and biochemical processes.

:tup:
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Postby Indigo Blue Fish » 2007-02-05 20:18

Good call Mick!
Have you put this as an article already?
If not, I would seriously recommend it - that's some sound reasoning!
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