whitespot

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Postby akasue » 2005-11-21 10:17

I need to use 50ml (half a bottle) of med for the sizeofmy tank but I havent treated for whitespot before, and it seems a lot to use at once, should I put it all in in one go, then will I need to use the same amount at each treatment. any other ideas for treating other than meds?

thanks J
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Postby saracen » 2005-11-21 10:22

What product are you using? That does sound an awful lot to use in one treatment.

How big is the tank?

Depending on what fish you have in there, you could also raise the temperature up to about 80. This will speed up the lifecycle of the whitespot parasite, and help to clear it quicker.
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Postby akasue » 2005-11-21 10:44

tank is 450l with community fish
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2005-11-21 16:49

For the non metric 450l = 100 gall imp approx. So no the dosage would be correct.
Let us know what brand your using please asap. Suggested doses usually read 5ml per 40l., so 50ml would be smack on. Remember to complete the treatment carry out the instructions on the bottle to the T. Good luck,
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Postby akasue » 2005-11-21 17:20

the brand is king british
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2005-11-21 18:09

Does the dosage state add 5ml to 40l water?
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Postby akasue » 2005-11-27 09:03

when the parasite burst out of the cyst does this leave a bigger mark on the fish?
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Postby susankat » 2005-11-27 14:58

Raise your temp to about 82 to 85 and treat for 10 days. That way you will speed up the lifecycle and kill all of it. Do water changes at least every other day and you will be good to go.
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2005-11-27 16:07

akasue, they are not cysts on the fish. The white spots on the fish are the actual parasite. Although I have never seen a fish scarred after have having or after being cured this is not to say it couldn't happen. I would imagine it would have to be quite sever for for scarring to take place.

For the record there are three stages to white spot disease*:
  • The spot: This is the actual parasite......they breed........lay eggs. No cure at this stage.</li>
  • The eggs: These are laid directly into the water and form a cyst on the substrate. No cure at this stage.</li>
  • The parasite: The eggs within the cyst hatch and the white spot larva become free swimming and, there looking for a meal, (your fish). It is only at this stage that any cure is effective.</li>
*Although referred to as a disease, white spot is not, it is a parasite. Please do not attempt a cure using a parasite treatment. The off the shelf treatments for white spot work and, most of them recommend a seven day period for treating. Always follow the dosage given for any remedy and always remember to remove carbon from your filters before the commencement of any treatment concerning disease, parasites and fungus.

Achieving a cure is made more effective by increasing the temperature to 82 deg. F. At this temp. the life cycle of the parasite is increased, in as much as the eggs hatch in less time. As this is the only stage at which the parasite can be killed it is very important that at least 7 days are allowed for treatment. If after seven day and, there are still signs, then continue treatment for another seven days.
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2005-11-27 16:20

Important, do not to water changes during treatments of any fish ailment and, if recommend at the end of the treament do a 50% water change. Even if you didn't use it before, after treament has finished add an adequate amount of activated carbon to your filter. The carbon will remove any left over residue from the medication which was left behind even after the 50% water change.
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Postby susankat » 2005-11-27 17:07

Mick e. t. wrote: Important, do not to water changes during treatments of any fish ailment and, if recommend at the end of the treament do a 50% water change. Even if you didn't use it before, after treament has finished add an adequate amount of activated carbon to your filter. The carbon will remove any left over residue from the medication which was left behind even after the 50% water change.

I have to disagree with not doing any waterchanges, because of a couple of reasons.

1. Doing waterchanges and gravel vac will help remove cysts that are in the gravel and what is floating in the water column.

2. What usually brings on ich is water quality and stress. It is best to keep up the wc to keep the water in top condition.

3. Even though meds say to treat for 7 days, It is always best to treat for 10, and leave the heat up during this time. That way no remaining cysts have a chance to remain in the tank.

4. I have treated ich and not used any meds at all. Just raising the temps will help. The heat will cause the cysts to hatch faster, the larvae stage and adult stages, are not able to handle the heat, mature faster and die.
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Postby Sam » 2005-11-27 17:11

susankat wrote: 4. I have treated ich and not used any meds at all. Just raising the temps will help. The heat will cause the cysts to hatch faster, the larvae stage and adult stages, are not able to handle the heat, mature faster and die.

Ive read about this way of treating ich, and it's highly recommended and effective.
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2005-11-27 18:43

I can see confusion creeping in here. I must stress that it is very very important that water changes are not carried out during the medical treatment of fish. This only refers to when medicines are added to the aquarium water. Should you need to do a water change whilst treating fish then it would be advisable to add carbon to your filter to remove the rest of the medication. Once satisfied that the water is free of medicine and should it be required restart treatment from beginning.

Now if you are treating white spot as susankat does then, yes of course water changes would be a must. I refer to:

(susankat @ Nov 27 2005, 05:07 PM wrote)
4. I have treated ich and not used any meds at all. Just raising the temps will help. The heat will cause the cysts to hatch faster, the larvae stage and adult stages, are not able to handle the heat, mature faster and die.


Just out of curiosity susankat, was the use of heat as a stand alone treatment for white spot your discovery or, is there a reputable paper on this topic. To be honest I have never come across heat as a stand alone cure for white spot. Heat is a main factor in the removal of ich but no where can I find it described as you suggest. Seriously, my only concern is that a beginner gets the wrong information. In good spirit and with good intent
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Postby susankat » 2005-11-27 18:54

It wasn't one of mine, I have read several articles on it. One that I can find off hand is: <a href='http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php' target='_blank'>http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php</a>

I have also done searches on treatments for it and have found several just using heat.

Even when adding meds you can still do water changes, just add the meds to the amount of water that is being added, It doesn't delute the meds and you don't have to start over. There is also several articles on this method.

Most meds will say 7 days, but it will take 10 days to make sure that you get all the cysts to hatch. Standard practice is to medicate for a few days after spot is all gone to make sure its eradicated. I have seen people just treat for the 7 days and thinking its gone will stop medicating only to have it return in a couple of days. There is also some new strains that have evolved to where they are more resistant to the meds.
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Postby Mick e. t. » 2005-11-27 20:48

Thanks susankat,
I am going to have another look at <a href='http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php' target='_blank'>Aqua Hobby</a> to see if there is anything there with regard to treating cold water fish re. using temp. I inadvertently posted this reply before it was completed, so I took the opportunity to go check any reference to cold water treatment of ich. I am sure I spotted reference to treating cold water fish re. temp. in the high 70's but on this occasion failed to locate it. For those who have more to do with cold water treatment of ich, check this site out <a href='http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=22' target='_blank'>Koivet</a>
My feelings and the way I perceive the information given in the quote from the Aqua Hobby site are as follows: In fact I shall refer to another site which can be found by clicking on the number 1 which is enclosed in brackets in the quote below.

It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4?C/85?F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30?C/86?F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32?C/89.5?F (Meyer, 1984), [<a href='http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/dfc//proceed/1992/24abs46.html' target='_blank'>1</a>]


Perhaps I am old fashioned in my approach to many things Tropical Fish wise but, I have to say I have enjoyed this debate and again thank, you, susankat for inspiring me into doing some research. Ich is not a topic/disease that has affected and, still hasn't, any of my fish for over 20 years. Although I never mention it as a cure, methylene blue was what I resorted to way back then. (It still is an affective cure but, hey messy or what).

Some final comments; If akasue hadn't opened the topic I would of been non the wiser. susankat, well if you hadn't kicked butt I would still be back in the 70's. To all who have followed this topic/discussion I hope you have found in it what I have found and been made wiser for it, enlightenment. My thanks to all,

PS. Dont go banging those heaters up into 90's, check the links out and proceed with caution!
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